Straight Shooters: Cathy Lemons and Johnny Ace
Interview by Joseph Jordan;
Photos by Victoria Smith
December 3, 2009
Perched high above the streets of San Francisco, in their cozy apartment filled with musical memorabilia, photographs, plants, and an accommodating cat, I sat down with the musical and personal team of bass player, vocalist Johnny Ace and vocalist Cathy Lemons, two stalwarts of the greater Bay Area blues scene. They’ve just finished an excellent CD, “Shoot to Kill” and are currently shopping for a label.
TGGBS: How did the two of you come together?
CL: I’ve known John since 1987, that’s about the time I came out here. At the time he was [playing bass] with Johnny Nitro. I don’t remember the first meeting, he does. But soon after, when I would run into him, I would find him to be one of the most hilarious people I’ve ever met in my life.
JA: What? Do I amuse you? (grins)
CL: Yes, still to this day. He was a maniac. He was drinking heavily and I was scared of him… scared because I had my own set of problems. I would say I knew John a good 7 or 8 years before we got together. But every time I saw him, we’d have this immediate connection musically and energetically and intellectually and everything just fit.
JA: And physically.
CL: (laughs) Let’s not go there. We finally got together around 1995 and he had really made a huge change in his life. I think mostly for his kids. He had four kids he was raising and I think he wanted to set a solid example that was healthy. So he quit drinking, he quit doing everything. [He] got into meditation. He didn’t even drink coffee. Nothing. So that was really inspiring to me too. And we just hit it off after that. We started to first slowly bring our music together as a team.
And then, we started to do some rehearsing and writing, which was really wonderful. The thing I love about John was that he introduced me to great singers that were unknown… the list is pretty big, but he also found these amazing songs that nobody knows, that were just buried. And so that was a huge, wonderful experience to broaden blues ideas. That was really cool. I would say John is a major musical influence, as well as personal. And one thing about John is
he’ll tell it to you straight. No beatin’ around the bush, man… if he likes it, he’s going to tell you, but you don’t [have to] guess. It’s probably why we’ve been together for
14 years. We do say what we think when we think it and say what we feel when we feel it and we’ve kept it honest, which is great.
JA: And it does get us in trouble.
CL: It gets you in trouble more than it gets me.
JA: I came out [to SF] in October of 1986 and I know I met
Cathy at a Monday night jam at The Saloon [North Beach’s venerable blues bar.] No one would hire me ‘cause I was drinking a lot and I did scare people. I go [to Johnny] “Nitro, there’s this beautiful lady singing” on stage with this black long hair and she sounded really good too. It was dark, but her eyes looked soulful and heartfelt. It was kind of love at first sight. Now at that time, I was going with a stripper. I asked Nitro, “is she [Cathy] available?” and he goes, “no.” Cathy had a boyfriend at the time. In 1990, Cathy was singing with Dave Workman’s band; then she would get me gigs with Workman and I eventually joined the band for 3 years… Cathy was [in the band] with him for 7 years. This gave me the opportunity to get to know Cathy. I really liked her boyfriend. So I had to wait, I don’t know how many years until she split up with him, and Imade my moves and we got along real good. After a while, ‘cause I was still with the stripper,Cathy said, “Johnny, it’s either me or her.” So I had to get rid of the stripper. That’swhen we got together musically and from then to now we’ve been developing that sound and writing songs a lot, and the new CD. It’s great to play music, but it’s even greater, as an artist, to get your own vocal voice and own sound and to write songs so they become you.
CL: Yes.
JA: Now the cover songs you do, take them and do them in your own style, and try to make them become you, and I learned that real young. I guess I taught that to Cathy, maybe?
CL: Yeah you did, but I also believed that too.
JA: So she knew that already.
CL: I always knew I had to develop my own sound, and I knew it instinctively always. I never tried to sound like another singer after the age of about 23. What Johnny also taught me is that it is important to write.
JA: She always had her own vocal style, that’s what I liked. She wasn’t imitating anybody and that goes a long way with me.
CL: I didn’t get that about writing before Johnny stressed it.
JA: She was always educated enough to write. She has great brain power. I knew she could write easily. And actually, when we first met I told her she “should be writing short stories and long stories. You should be writing.” She is an artist too.
TGGBS: Where are you guys from and why did you get out?
CL: Oh boy, I had to get out. I was being chased by the cops. Literally. I was in Dallas.Basically, I moved 15 times before I graduated high school. We lived in East Africa, Jamaica, Dallas, the Midwest, Upstate New York, Wisconsin. My mother would do zigzags. That’s hard on a kid. Lots and lots of moving.
JA: That’s unhealthy psychologically on someone so young. But her mom’s a good soul at heart.
JA: I grew up in New York. In Queens, right on the Brooklyn line. It was a great place to grow up. I was born in 1949, so I actually got to hear rock and roll when it came out. I had this cousin who turned me on to it in 1955. So I was brought up on rock and roll and boy, did I love it, ever. And still, now, I love rock and roll. And the vocal groups, what they call doo-wop now, I still love with all my heart. I left New York because I wanted to see the world. I left the neighborhood young and I went to the City all the time, to see all these great groups and that just enhanced my cranium. I just wanted to experiment and see America. And I’m so happy I did.
TGGBS: Tell me about your respective beginnings in music. What kind of music did you listen to when you were kids? How about now?
CL: I used to be into female folk music, then swing and jazz, and then one day, I was listening to a commercial on TV, and I was about 22 and I heard Aretha Franklin. Now I know Aretha is a soul singer, but she’s also one hell of a profound blues singer. I said, “Oh my God, who is that?” So I started bugging some of the musicians I knew and told them, “get me some of that.” I was in a swing band and our bass player was also in a blues band. And I said to him, “well, I’ve got to go hear you play.” So I heard them and it was “Oh my God, this is it. This is the shit, this is what I want, this is what’s going to work.” And everybody told me, “Your voice is too sweet. You can never do this. This is not you.” So that made me even more determined. So I would go to these gigs and I would sit in, and I just sang from here (points to heart) and I started blowing them away and people would go, “where did that come from?” When I first started singing, I was shouting too much. I had so much in me and so much angst that I didn’t know how to cap it. It was kind of like an explosion in the early years. People were really moved, but it was really hard to maintain vocally. I was pretty strong, but I had to learn to bring that “chest voice” in more openly so I wouldn’t scream my voice out. I was hitting it pretty hard in the beginning. That was what I was feeling too. I’ll make a confession, [now] if I'm alone and hear great blues, I get really upset. It’s a very strange thing. I don’t feel I’m where I need to be musically in my career, and I hear that shit and it moves me so much and I feel this sense of frustration. I listen to the old stuff. I love Chicago blues the best.
TGGBS: What is it like to be a woman in the business?
CL: It’s hella hard. Since I was in my early 20s, the first thing I noticed about male musicians is how they help each other and how they bond. There’s a buddy thing that goes on with men and it’s really beautiful and I really love to see that dance. There’s also a network thing among men. Women are often a little bit feared sometimes. There is an underplay of the sex thing. One of the things I loved about John is that he saw me as a person. He always treated me as a person. But it’s very hard and also it’s like a balance. There’s a fear of women from the guys. There’s a lot of power in being an attractive woman and there are currents of desire (from men). So there’s that networking thing that men use and develop that women get cut out of sometimes. It’s different for women; you have to learn to hold your own and not get entangled. I always believed that blues were made for women. It’s a great sexy music—there’s a figure eight in the blues beat—like a woman’s walk—blues drums are like high heels walking down the street. It’s really interesting 
how it all pans out. As I am maturing as a singer, I now feel I’d like to mentor younger women. It’s all about the material. If you’re a young singer, the first rule is that you have got to live life, and second rule is material, material, material. If you don’t write, find some songs that nobody else is doing. But don’t do “Chain of Fools” all night long. Eventually, if you want to become a serious artist, you have to differentiate, dig into the material and not just do the rote. It’s so easy to fall into that.
TGGBS: Johnny, is this a particularly exciting time for you musically?
JA: That’s why I wrote the song (on the new CD) “Sink or
Swim” because it’s really the time to sink or swim, ‘cause it’s not easy now for artists. So we made the record and had a lot of fun making it, although the overdubs and all the mixing were as not as much fun. But yes, I’m very happy, and can’t wait to get it out and see what happens in the next year or two. I am pretty excited. Local artists like us are not known as much all over the world, and I think we deserve to be up there a little more. Not famous, but at least more respected. I was never like that when I was a kid, I just wanted to have fun… drink wine, get high, and be with women. But now I want to make really good music and I want to be respected as an artist and musician. That’s what I really want. But I am very excited about the new record and the future. It will be fun to see what happens.
TGGBS: You’ve just debuted a new website and have a new CD called “Shoot to Kill” coming out. When will the CD become available?
CL: We’re not sure yet. We’re shopping for a label. I’m hoping between 3 to 6 months, but it depends on the business situation.
TGGBS: So you won’t put it out first to the public and hope a label buys it later?
CL: No, we won’t.
TGGBS: Cathy, what have you learned since your last CD was released, the critically acclaimed “Dark Road,” in regard to what you’ve done with the new record?
CL: Oh wow. What I’ve learned, which is part and parcel in developing as a singer, is the notes, for example, don’t matter so much as to how high or how low you go. It’s the feeling, and the phrasing. But primarily it’s the placement of those notes. And writing is definitely where it’s at. You can tell your own story. I’ve also learned that you can weave the songs in a way so that they fit like a series of short stories into a whole, which is really cool. I’ve also learned not to nitpick it to death. (Here, Johnny claps repeatedly.) Once you get close enough to the ballpark, move forward. I’ve learned to compromise a lot this time. Johnny, [co-producer] Kid Andersen, and I had to do that. [In the process of] mixing things, you have to compromise.
JA: It’s so hard working with another artist, especially when you live with them. It’s very hard.
CL: On “Shoot to Kill,” the notes I picked were right, they worked. You’ve got a huge range of notes where you’ve got to decide what works in telling the story, which is the most important thing, but you’ve got to pick a note, and each word is carried through by that note, which creates a composition and, in turn, too many notes or the wrong note can make or break a song. And the notes that I’m picking are dead on now. That’s a big deal. That’s a big thing. That takes years.
JA: You did too many vocal gymnastics in “Dark Road” and you’ve learned.
CL: That’s it, John. It was too much. Less is more.
JA: One thing I learned is how technology blows my mind now. I just can’t believe how they can do things now. And I didn’t learn it, I just experienced it. It’s almost shocking to me that a human being could sing flat and they can go in there, and they set it somehow with the computer for a bad singer to sing on key. That’s amazing. It’s like cheating. It’s also amazing where you can have a musician in New York City and you could send him [the song] and he can play his part via computer. That blows my mind too. To me, that’s great, but I also miss being with people in the studio doing that. It’s great, it’s great, but if we had the money, we could fly people in.
CL: There’s more magic when they’re playing with you.
JA: Of course. And I’m learning to compromise. You grow as a person. I’m learning to compromise. And it’s not easy for someone like me. If you want to keep your own identity, that’s the bitch being with a partner. You’ve got to work together and it’s so tricky. It’s not easy, but when it works right, it’s so good. But when it don’t work… ahhhhk-squawk!
CL: We’re two stubborn people
JA: Yes we are.
TGGBS: In addition to Johnny on bass, you’ve got some stellar players on the recording, like Tommy Castro, Ron Thompson, Pierre Le Corre, David Maxwell [from Boston], Paul Oscher, Artie “Stix” Chavez, and the playing and co-production talents of the amazing Kid Andersen. How did you go about gathering these players?
CL: We asked them (laughs).
JA: They’re our friends. We just wanted to make a good record and Cathy and I discussed it. What do we want to do? Do we want to make this record all ourselves? Do we want to have guest artists? So we talked about it, and we discussed the sound, and what would be fun.
TGGBS: How could the local Bay Area blues scene improve economically or otherwise, and do you see the genesis of that happening?
CL: We have got to work together, all these different artists. And we love each other. A lot of each of us really dig each other. We have to create shows together more, support each other more. We need to give, be generous. Help each other. The California way is the “tit for tat, smile on your face, stab you in the back” type thing. But it doesn’t work. And so what we need to do is help each other, mentor young people too. Get them interested and pull them in. Help ‘em, teach ‘em, show ‘em material and shit, and show them what’s going on. I’m really excited when I see things that are going on. Like E. C. Scott’s show [EC’s Jook Joint, shown locally on KOFY, TV 20). I love that. And I just have a feeling in my gut that the wheel’s turning around again. I do. It’s a good time actually. Blues always goes in waves. It goes way down and it comes back around. And I think its about to come back around.
JA: I try to be positive, and I do agree with what Cathy said, but we need more venues. San Francisco especially is a very rich city and you could get anything you want in this city musically and, to me, it’s a little spoiled. There’s too much talent here. You could do whatever you want, go see whatever you want. But, unfortunately, there are only three blues clubs [Biscuits & Blues, The Saloon, and Lou’s Pier 47] and maybe a couple of other ones that don’t pay at all hardly and there’s not enough clubs to support all these bands. That’s why, in the golden days of music, there was so much work, because they didn’t have video games and computers, and that’s why musicians got along so well together because there was so much work. When there ain’t a lot of work, it’s dog eat dog. There’s still fellowship among musicians, but it ain’t like it was. If you know any millionaires that want to open up a nightclub, please have them do it. We need more venues. I hope it gets better, that’s all I can say. It’s a tough thing.
TGGBS: What would you two like to see happen within a locally oriented blues society? What do you think a role should be, what would be most helpful?
JA: A blues society should give work to the musicians and educate people that don’t know about blues. You put on a show and get people to come and you educate people with videos in these shows, as well as the live performances. You get like a club, you get people that don’t know anything about blues, and turn them on to it. You’ve got to do it once a month, at least. Have ‘em make a big happening of it, in a big hall where people could make money who perform. You could sell t-shirts and membership cards. It could be done. You could also put a record label together. My first idea though is to put on shows that promote blues. Now the bitch is there’s 20 or 30 bands that will want to play the shows. How many groups are you going to have? I
would do it once a month. You need brains, money, and to spread the word. And it can be done, but you’ve got to do it with love. I think if you could develop your society [the
GGBS], it would help a lot. And also education in the schools would be great.
CL: It’s a huge thing. Communication and love for the music is the whole thing. Set up a game plan. A few small steps first, and you can’t get overwhelmed. I really want to see your society continue. It’s really needed.
JA: You have something here that can be really good, if not great; that’s what I’m talking about.
TGGBS: Are you excited about the state of the world?
CL: Even though things might seem bleak, we have the power and we have the choice. [We have it] every second of our lives. If we can just work together, especially the blues
community… there’s a lot of great people, a lot of great talent here and people I really love deeply. If we could all pull together, we could pull this thing off the ground. The wheel is turning and you’ve got to have faith. I really believe that everything is possible, anything at all.
JA: I'm tryin' to be positive. If everyone could help one another and the world by doing something positive, even picking up a piece of trash on the ground, or helping a person who has no money by giving them a quarter or a dollar bill… that’s a little help. I wake up in the morning and I thank whoever’s above there for letting me breathe and for giving me the gifts. It’s such a great, beautiful world. I just wish man would be able to get along.
CL: Yes and it’s a holy miracle that we’re alive.
JA: Yes. There’s lots of hope. The last 10 years, I’ve been trying to inspire young people to be artists or to be who they are. It’s not over, I tell them. If you can do stuff, it’s really important to do what you want to do with your life. Everyone is given a gift, and it’s really important to nurture that gift, and if you don’t, you’ll be miserable. I think love is the answer.
TGGBS: Anything else you’d like to talk about?
JA: I tell you one thing. I am so happy with what I’m doing. I never regret playing bass or blues and it’s a great thing. To be an artist is just a great privilege. I really love it.
CL: I love live performance. I love studio shit too. But live performance, when it’s on, there’s nothing like it in the world for me. And the love you feel with the people you’re playing with is like a high. It’s really great. If you’re on. There’s nothing like it.
JA: And the other extreme is when it ain’t, there’s nothing like that neither. (They both laugh.)
Check out Cathy and Johnny’s new website at: http://www.lemonace.com
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